Open Sound System

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(why oss community have ho bug tracker?)

qtroll wrote:why oss community have ho bug tracker?

It seems to be "deprecated".
The reason is obvious: http://linuxhaters.blogspot.de/2008/08/ ... m-all.html

Well, bug reports from non-technical users can be harmful, but what about technical one?
Also, this forum should have the same problem.

qtroll wrote:Well, bug reports from non-technical users can be harmful, but what about technical one?
Also, this forum should have the same problem.

Perhaps, you missed the point:

Open bug tracking increases collaboration, transparency, and saves lives of poor, hungry children, etc.
http://linuxhaters.blogspot.de/2008/08/ ... m-all.html

"Non-technical users" are not harmful, the real troublemakers are "technical users" and "Linux developers" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lennart_Poettering

All prominent troublemakers have something in common. It's narcissism, or, perhaps, more precisely, "aggressive narcissism" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Narcissism ... narcissism
It seems to be a global plague caused by "technocratic experiments". The term "Narcissistic Leaders" was coined Michael Maccoby and Harvard Business School.
See: Maccoby, Michael. The Productive Narcissist, the Promise and Peril of Visionary Leadership. New York: Broadway Books, 2003.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Maccoby
The idea is rather simple: "when a group is without a leader, you can often count on a narcissist to take charge" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Narcissist ... and_groups
"Narcissistic Leaders" are, of course, "productive troublemakers" armed "with the interrelated set of skills", such as "foresight, systems thinking, visioning, motivating", and "strategic intelligence." It was said to be "a new paradigm of modern leadership" http://hbr.org/product/narcissistic-lea ... 41-PBK-ENG

This "new paradigm of modern leadership" was, perhaps, inspired by anthropological studies of Cargo cults in Papua New Guinea . All prominent Cargo cult leaders seem to be "aggressive narcissists". [See: Worsley, Peter (1957), The Trumpet Shall Sound: A study of "cargo cults" in Melanesia, London: MacGibbon & Kee.]
See also: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toxic_leader
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Narcissistic_leadership
Narcissism And Toxic Leaders http://usacac.army.mil/CAC2/MilitaryRev ... art012.pdf
Malignant Self Love: Narcissism Revisited by Samuel Vaknin
http://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/4663

"Open bug tracking" was designed as a "universal technical solution" to all problems. It is a kind of "magic technical ritual", which should be performed by the community of the true believers on a regular basis. Otherwise, the promised Cargo may fail to arrive http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qmlYe2KS0-Y

The OSS4 developers do not seem to be enthusiastic about "universal solutions" (such as PulseAudio), "magic rites", "ritual performances" (e.g. "open bug tracking"), and "ritual technology" in general. What is missing is the gift of faith. They do not seem to believe in the magic power of "technical rituals" and "technocratic solutions" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Technocracy

In the South Seas there is a cargo cult of people. During the war they saw airplanes land with lots of good materials, and they want the same thing to happen now. So they've arranged to imitate things like runways, to put fires along the sides of the runways, to make a wooden hut for a man to sit in, with two wooden pieces on his head like headphones and bars of bamboo sticking out like antennas – he's the controller – and they wait for the airplanes to land. They're doing everything right. The form is perfect. It looks exactly the way it looked before. But it doesn't work. No airplanes land. So I call these things cargo cult science, because they follow all the apparent precepts and forms of scientific investigation, but they're missing something essential, because the planes don't land.
Now it behooves me, of course, to tell you what they're missing. But it would be just about as difficult to explain to the South Sea Islanders how they have to arrange things so that they get some wealth in their system. It is not something simple like telling them how to improve the shapes of the earphones.
CARGO CULT SCIENCE by Richard Feynman http://www.lhup.edu/~DSIMANEK/cargocul.htm
See also: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yvfAtIJbatg

The ritual of "open bug tracking" is "missing something essential", and, therefore, it constantly fails to work wonders. In fact, it can only produce "very advanced open-source crap" such as PulseALSA, systemd, and Gnome3, as well as ordinary crap. You may try a kind of "Ubuntu Masturbating Monkey LTS" to see how it works.

To make "bug-fixing" effective, one may need a secret esoteric technology and special secret knowledge. Perhaps, Hannu knows the true secret of Cargo. That is why OSS4 performs much better than ALSA.

To make it clear, it might be necessary to translate it into a kind of technical language, or "technocratic speak". The open-source projects, such as the "open bug tracking", PulseAlsa, Gnome3, systemd, and Linux in general, constantly fail to work wonders, because they are fundamentally wrong by design. Therefore, the "open-source developers" keep inventing new "open-source projects" to fix problems created by old "open-source projects". This sort of "open-source development" seems to be a perfect example of "stupid business". It fails, because it is "missing something essential". This is the problem. The "closed source projects", such as M$ Windows and the like, may often have the same problem. If a project is ill-designed, it is doomed to failure. This might be obvious. However, it is not always obvious that a particular project is ill-designed, before this project fails.

That is why the technical method of "trial and error" was invented by human beings. As Richard Feynman put it so well:

During the Middle Ages there were all kinds of crazy ideas, such as that a piece of rhinoceros horn would increase potency. Then a method was discovered for separating the ideas – which was to try one to see if it worked, and if it didn't work, to eliminate it http://www.lhup.edu/~DSIMANEK/cargocul.htm

This method was already known in the Stone Age http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stone_Age This is exactly what our brothers in Vanuatu are doing on a regular basis. They keep inventing and trying new "technical rituals" in an effort to obtain the Cargo they want http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qmlYe2KS0-Y

If you pretend to be a "technical user", you may try to design a very advanced technology of "open bug tracking", or "semi-closed" one, or a special universal tool to fix all problems created by the old method of "open bug tracking". It might be interesting to try. It is not true that Cargo cults always fail. You have to keep trying despite any failures.

Bucktrackers are useful and IMO shouldn't be amiss in any open source or even closed source project. If anything, they help to collect bugs and keep them protocolized, which prevents bugs to be overlooked. Sometimes it is also a reassurement,- that you are not the only one experiencing it.

@qtroll: Hannu plans to move to GitHub, so there should be a bug tracker already out-of-the-box. For now, maybe you could try the developer mailing list? I don't know tought if it's suited for that. From time to time thought also the dev is looking into the forums.

nuc wrote:Bucktrackers are useful and IMO shouldn't be amiss in any open source or even closed source project. If anything, they help to collect bugs and keep them protocolized, which prevents bugs to be overlooked. Sometimes it is also a reassurement,- that you are not the only one experiencing it.

"Bucktrackers" mean "bug trackers". Right?

Bug trackers are useful, of course. It is obvious. However, everything what is useful can be misused. This is the problem.
For example, aerodromes are also useful, but they can be, sometimes, misused by our brothers in Vanuatu http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qmlYe2KS0-Y

It is not always possible to separate Cargo cults from "rational activities".
Richard Feynman have already tried to explain the difference between Science and "Cargo Cult Science". The result was a failure. His "explanation" was based on a wrong assumption:

During the Middle Ages there were all kinds of crazy ideas, such as that a piece of rhinoceros horn would increase potency. Then a method was discovered for separating the ideas – which was to try one to see if it worked, and if it didn't work, to eliminate it http://www.lhup.edu/~DSIMANEK/cargocul.htm

The method of "trial and error" was not discovered after the "dark period" of the Middle Ages. This method was already known in the Stone Age http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stone_Age The method of "trial and error" is the basic technology of any Cargo cult, according to Anthropology.
See: Worsley, Peter (1957), The Trumpet Shall Sound: A study of "cargo cults" in Melanesia, London: MacGibbon & Kee. Subsequent editions by MacGibbon & Kee, 1968; and Schocken Books, 1968, 1986, & 1987. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter_Worsley
Kenelm Burridge. Mambu. A Melanesian Millennium. Methuen, 1960. (Reprinted as Mambu. A Melanesian Millennium. Princeton, Princeton Univ. Press, 1995. ISBN 0-691-00166-9.) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kenelm_Burridge
See also: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_Feynman

Take, for example, economic science. Is it a science, or it is a Cargo cult? The main goal of Cargo cults is freedom and prosperity. This does not contradict economic science. Both economists and Cargo cultists keep inventing and trying new "technical rituals" (e.g., "market reforms") in an effort to materialize their dreams about prosperity.

In short, it is not clear whether the "open bug tracking" is a "rational technology", or it is just another example of Cargo cult. It might be a useful Cargo cult, of course. It may help to imitate "technological progress" and "open-source development". In other words, it might be utilized as a kind of "Potemkin village" (Potemkinsches Dorf)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Potemkin_village
http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Potemkinsches_Dorf
To be effective and really useful, the ritual of "open bug tracking" may require modernization. It should be more "advanced" to be credible. First of all, it should be renamed. For example: Advanced Linux Bug Tracking Architecture.

So, this forum is considered more useful or just anti-Cargo religion belongs to this place? Saying "forum" instead of "bug tracker" and "thread" instead of "ticket" doesn't really change anything.
Anyway, github-style bug tracker have some advantages: it supports tags and ticket can link to commits.
Also, we can separate "[something] doesn't work!" and "I want feature X" from "How do I do FOO?".

qtroll wrote:So, this forum is considered more useful or just anti-Cargo religion belongs to this place?

This seems to be misunderstanding.

In Papua New Guinea, Cargo cultists tend to believe that Cargo can be somehow produced (or caused to arrive) by a sort of "technical ritual" (they call it "work").

Do you believe that bugs can be fixed by a "bug tracker" or other "technical procedure"?

Do you believe that bugs can be fixed by a "bug tracker" or other "technical procedure"?

Lol, no. People fix bugs.
Bug tracker is just a place to talk about bugs and features, and this forum is sort of bug tracker too -- but spoiled by irrelevant threads and less useful.
The real question is if it is really useful to separate bugs and features talks from other one. And I think it is.

qtroll wrote:

Do you believe that bugs can be fixed by a "bug tracker" or other "technical procedure"?

Lol, no. People fix bugs.
Bug tracker is just a place to talk about bugs and features, and this forum is sort of bug tracker too -- but spoiled by irrelevant threads and less useful.
The real question is if it is really useful to separate bugs and features talks from other one. And I think it is.

This does not contradict common sense.

Our brothers in Vanuatu practice Cargo cult rituals, because they know who is manufacturing Cargo. There are not irrational (in this sense).

Typically, participants in a Cargo cult engage in a number of strange and exotic rites and ceremonies the purpose of which is, apparently, to gain possession of European manufactured goods... Participants may whirl, shake, chant, dance, foam at the mouth, or couple promiscuously in agitated attempts to obtain the cargo they want, not from a shop or trade store, but directly from the mystical source supposedly responsible for manufacture and distribution.
Kenelm Burridge. Mambu. A Melanesian Millennium. Princeton Univ. Press, 1995, pp. XIX-XX.

If a ritual fails to produce the expected results, it is usually "deprecated" and replaced with a new one. However, it is not easy to invent a new ritual. They do abandon ineffective rites, but they have to wait until a new ritual is invented.

qtroll wrote:People fix bugs.

This might be true. But they are not ordinary people. Right? They are a sort of "supermen", or "developers".
If you know who is fixing bugs, you may try to worship him through the help of "technical rituals", such as "bug tracking", "forum", and the like. If he is a "narcissist", he may need a "narcissistic supply" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Narcissistic_supply

There was, in fact, a kind of "bug tracker". It seems to be "deprecated", largely because, perhaps, it was not very effective.

This might be true. But they are not ordinary people. Right? They are a sort of "supermen", or "developers".

OSS community -- shaman-driven sound system development. If I make a sacrifice, my problem might be fixed.

If you know who is fixing bugs, you may try to worship him through the help of "technical rituals", such as "bug tracking", "forum", and the like.

But that doesn't work 'cause they say something like "fix it yourself!". That's why we need neither forum nor bug tracker.

There was, in fact, a kind of "bug tracker". It seems to be "deprecated", largely because, perhaps, it was not very effective.

Rational.

qtroll wrote:OSS community -- shaman-driven sound system development. If I make a sacrifice, my problem might be fixed.

The OSS4 community is rather driven by the invisible forces of self-organization. It does not make much sense to practice any rituals. The reason is obvious: to be effective, a ritual should be exact in an absolute sense. The ritual of sacrifice is likely to fail, if it is not perfect. You may better practice "wu wei" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wu_wei

qtroll wrote:OSS community -- shaman-driven sound system development. If I make a sacrifice, my problem might be fixed.

Haha

Well I suggested you could use the developer mailing list, - or wait for Hannu to set up github, be warned however this might take a while.
But I can reassure you, somewhere between a very long time and eternity it should be done:

Move to GitHub is in my plans. However at this moment there is not much development being done so there is no hurry.

yeah...